Associated Authors / **Donald Harvey** # **Visiting Charles Mason Remey** #### **Text prepared by Donald A. Harvey with the assistance of Jacques Soghomonian** \[1] ##### September 5, 1972 [↓ PDF](https://leland-jensen-info.netlify.app/1972-09-05-harvey-donald-visiting-cm-remey.pdf) *** #### **Historical Introduction** Donald Harvey and Jacques Soghomonian's account of their September 1972 visit to Charles Mason Remey in Florence provides essential documentation for understanding the Establisher, the guardian, and the appointment of the third guardian. ‎ **Charles Mason Remey Claims to be the Lamb of Revelations** Quoted in Dr. Leland Jensen's *Sixth Epistle to Joseph Pepe Remey*: >… In a \[written account entitled] "Text perpared by Donald Harvey with the assistance of Jacques Soghomonian" \[which states] that \[they] had visited the guardian, Mason Remey, on September 5, 1972, they asked Mason if he was the Lamb and he responded that he was the Lamb: > >*"To another question put forth to Mason concerning the Revelation of John The Divine and the corresponding chapter of the New Testament in the Bible where it is spoken of the Lamb of God who will sit upon the Throne of God surrounded by the faithful and where he will unfurl the scrolls, Mason confirmed that the Lamb of God **is in fact** the Guardians of the Cause of Baha’u’llah. These verses revealed by John the Apostle in the Chapter of Revelation in **the very Last Days** would be literally accomplished in due time"* (on top of page 2 of the xerox copy of the document, enclosed). > >You can't say the Lamb without saying, or meaning Jesus the Lamb. When you say Jesus to most people it means Jesus Christ. As Mason said that Baha'u'llah was not the return of Jesus Christ. Mason here was saying, or meaning, that he (Mason) was the return of Jesus Christ — the new Manifestation that sets up a new cycle — although Baha'u'llah stated in the Kitab-I-Aqdas that there would not be another for a full thousand-years. Thus Mason did away with the Baha'i Faith and called his new Dispensation the Abba Father faith. > >(Dr. Leland Jensen, *Sixth Epistle to Joseph Pepe Remey*, August 28, 1990, 8–9.) ‎Also quoted in Dr. Jensens' *Most Mighty Document*: >Donald, on his visit to Mason in September of 1972, asked Mason this question: *"...in the Bible where it is spoken of the Lamb of God who will sit upon the Throne of God surrounded by the Faithful and where he will unfurl and unveil the scrolls, Mason confirmed that the Lamb of God is in fact the Guardian of the Cause of Baha'u'llah."* Mason knew the Lamb would have to break the 7 seals to establish the Kingdom. But Mason didn't even know what the 7 seals were. He rambled on about "the Seven Lights or Candles of the Spirit. Each of the true followers of Baha'u'llah and of the Guardianship which is inseparable to this Cause should be as each of these Lights." Thus Mason, who was seated upon the Throne, could not be the Lamb before the throne. He was seated upon it, not before it, and therefore he could not break the 7 seals and establish the 'Kingdom of God on earth' (the Davidic Kingship). > >(Dr. Leland Jensen, *Most Mighty Document*, April 1979, 31.) ‎ ‎**Ongoing Guardianship Tests** Notable excerpts from this account relate specifically to the appointment of Joseph Pepe Remey to the guardianship: >Mason emphasized how much Pepe is a very special servant to the Cause through his total service, abnegation and entire fidelity to him Mason, to his physical person presently confined to his room. Mason declared how much this fact should be known to all the peoples as it will be anyway sooner or later, this we can all be sure. At the time Charles Mason Remey was 98 years old and had years earlier named Joseph Pepe in his *Will* (August 29, 1963) and subsequently adopted him (May 13, 1964), thus fulfilling the criteria for the appointment of Joseph Pepe Remey as the third guardian of the Baha'i Faith. As a continuation of the test set up by Shoghi Effendi — the *'Is there a guardian?'* test — he appointed two additional guardians creating a new *'Who is the guardian?'* test. Only Joseph Pepe Remey satisfied the dual criteria of being both appointed and a son as required by 'Abdu'l-Baha's *Will and Testament*. While Pepe's appointment was not known at the time of this meeting, Remey hinted at it when he declared that Pepe's special role "…should be known to all the peoples as it will be anyway sooner or later, this we can be sure." He also expressed that the confusion surrounding the guardianship would continue, no doubt as a result of the ongoing tests, including his: >Mason declared quite bluntly that there are pretenders as there always were, but especially in our times and for times to come. These pretenders claim for themselves the Guardianship of the Faith of Baha'u'llah and thereby will mislead many peoples as is the case in partisan and election political campaigns. No matter how this continues Mason declared that there is but one single Cause of God and that each of us can be certain that there is but one Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. This he has repeated several times during this initial conversation, and he has insisted very strongly on this fact of unicity and of the authenticity of the Guardianship of the Cause of Baha'u'llah. Over the course of the visit Charles Mason Remey repeats five times "There are many called but few chosen" (Matthew 22:14) confirming that the appointment of Joel Marangella and his premature declaration three years earlier was a false appointment and a part of a test. In that context he goes on to warn: "…there are pretenders… These pretenders claim for themselves the Guardianship of the Faith… and …will mislead many peoples" warning Donald Harvey of the test he'll soon be facing. Dr. Jensen writes: >When I was with the Guardian in Washington in the Spring of '61, he told me that Shoghi Effendi had initiated a test (a sting operation). He appointed his successor by appointing him the head of the embryonic UHJ, as the head of the UHJ is the guardian. He said to me that those that had passed this test, and when this test was over, the people would never again try to do away with the guardianship. He continued this test, but had to abandon it and proclaim himself for the safety of the faith, when they did away with the International Baha'i Council. > >Then he told me that there was going to be another sting operation (test): That when he passed on, those that had passed the first test would know that there was a successor, but they wouldn't know who he was. Then he re-established the administration, and a National Spiritual Assembly. He appointed a number of people to be his successor in the guardianship by various means and methods, such as by establishing the second International Baha'i Council, with him being the head and all the members being vice-presidents. The highest on the list to survive a common catastrophe, which he wouldn't survive, that vice-president would then be the succeeding guardian. > >Anybody that knew the *Will and Testament* would know that this was a hoax. To be a succeeding guardian, he would not only have to be appointed by the guardian during his lifetime, but he would also have to be an Aghsan (a Branch). > >This Council had to be aborted because of the strife among the vice-presidents. Then he set up another council. This time they were elders, with Mason being the Lamb, and with the surviving elder nearest the top of the list to be his successor. This was a setup. He was giving them what they wanted, to satisfy their starved egos. Then he sent some of them personal letters, like Donald Harvey and Joel Marangella, to further bait them, telling them that they were to succeed him in the guardianship. Their ambition and self-importance blinded them from checking it out with the *Will and Testament*. There they would have found that they couldn't be a succeeding guardian without being a descendant of King David. > >(Dr. Leland Jensen, *First Epistle to Joseph Pepe Remey*, June 8, 1989, 3.) ‎ *The full text of the account follows below.* ‎ *** # **Text prepared by Donald A. Harvey with the assistance of Jacques Soghomonian** ##### September 5, 1972 ‎ Jacques and Donald journeyed Monday 4th September 1972 by highway from Marseille to Florence in view of visiting the Guardian of the Cause of God and of the Faith of Baha'u'llah. They arrived late in the evening and it was only the following morning, Tuesday 5th September that they took contact at the Pensione. There they found Mason Remey in high form, sitting in an easy chair in his room. He welcomed them with open arms one and the other, and the conversation began almost immediately. Mason emphasized how much Pepe is a very special servant to the Cause through his total service, abnegation and entire fidelity to him Mason, to his physical person presently confined to his room. Mason declared how much this fact should be known to all the peoples as it will be anyway sooner or later, this we can all be sure. Then the topic of the present confusion throughout the world and more particularly in the Baha'i Faith was brought up. Mason declared quite bluntly that there are pretenders as there always were, but especially in our times and for times to come. These pretenders claim for themselves the Guardianship of the Faith of Baha'u'llah and thereby will mislead many peoples as is the case in partisan and election political campaigns. No matter how this continues Mason declared that there is but one single Cause of God and that each of us can be certain that there is but one Guardian of the Baha'i Faith. This he has repeated several times during this initial conversation, and he has insisted very strongly on this fact of unicity and of the authenticity of the Guardianship of the Cause of Baha'u'llah. He said that none of us should ever be discouraged whatever the circumstances for ultimately this truth of the guardianship and of a single Guardian would be at last seen and recognized by all the peoples living upon this Earth. The Guardian said that our present day situation surrounding us is very confusing indeed. Jacques and Donald asked him, since so many efforts of the Sans-Guardian groups and those of the followers of numerous pretenders to the Guardianship of the Cause, those of today and those to come, if it would be useful that large excerpts and developments of 'Some Answered Questions' be circulated everywhere. Mason immediately answered them to do nothing of the kind, so not to add to the great confusion which prevails now in the Faith among all the friends. It would be well instead for each of the very few friends who really follow the Guardian (and for him four or five of them at this moment would be sufficient) to pursue on doing his best in presenting this Message which is destined to all the peoples, to the peoples that they may meet in these times to come. The friends must not engage in arguments (polemics) which only shrouds fundamentals and makes things yet more confusing then they are at present, but to know well themselves what Baha'u'llah expects from each and from all in order to be able to present with some degree of success this Message to the peoples of the earth, beginning thereby with those who show a definite desire for the search for truth. Answering a question Mason said that mysteries are created solely by men. To another question put forth to Mason concerning the Revelation of John The Divine and the corresponding chapter of the New Testament in the Bible where it is spoken of the Lamb of God who will sit upon the Throne of God surrounded by the faithful and where he will unfurl the scrolls, Mason confirmed that the Lamb of God is in fact the Guardians of the Cause of Baha'u'llah. These verses revealed by John the Apostle in the Chapter of Revelation in the very Last Days would be literally accomplished in due time. Mason made mention of the Number One, the Unicity of God and of His Cause and that of the Guardianship. He spoke also about the Number Seven as being a number of religious significance down through the ages and more particularly so during these present times and those to come (The Seven Lights or Candles of the Spirit). Each of the true followers of Baha'u'llah and of the Guardianship which is inseparable to this Cause should be as each of these lights. Mason reminiscing while on this subject recalled an hymn in the Methodist Church: "Keep the home Light burning", never let it die down, keep it well in evidence before the whole world. Such is the requirement for the Seven Lights for the times we are now living in. It is incumbent for all concerned to insure that whatever surrounds and protects that Light from outside winds (in other words, the Lamp itself) will be constantly maintained in good condition so that it will correctly fulfill its purpose. Mason also recalled the numerical systems having ten, or twelve as a base, which are propositions and inventions coming solely from men and having no relationship with these Seven Lights in the Baha'i Faith. Moreover Mason indicated that there was no direct relationship whatsoever, even no basis for comparison between these Seven Lights and the Five Worlds of the Spirit which were developed by Abdu'l-Baha in one of the Chapters of "Some Answered Questions". All throughout this series of exposes the Guardian, more lucid than he ever seemed to be before, insisted upon the fact that there is but one Guardian, and all those who, today follow the Guardian can ever be certain of it whatever may happen as coming from men, and no matter how many detractors (there) will be. All ready with the presentation of the signification of the figure "Seven", and that of the figure "One" (one single true Cause of God and one Guardian only) Mason then emphasized and insisted upon the sentence: "There are many called and few chosen". He again and again repeated this Verse, alternating it with the declaration that, there is but one sole true Guardian of the Faith and that the few who follow him and who will follow him can be absolutely certain of that fact and must not allow anything whatever to lead them away from this essential and indestructible Truth. Jacques proposed that a prayer be said all together and Mason asked Jacques to lead us in prayer at this moment. Even before the last verse was pronounced Mason had closed his eyes and found himself then so it seemed intensely concentrated as in another world. Only thereafter he gradually come back to himself. This interview lasted about an hour and a few minutes over, and Jacques with Donald took leave of the Guardian since lunch time was approaching, in order to meet with him later that afternoon. It is customary right after lunch for everyone to take a short nap or "siesta". Mason remained alone in his room most of the afternoon while Jacques, Donald and Pepe were up to the terrace on top of the building for a relaxed and friendly chat, reminiscing about many events that were lived through by some or another, either together or each one on his own. Somehow a balance sheet could thus be drawn with the evidence that the True Faith and Cause of God is one thing while the actions of men, far from being decisive and overriding, can only be illuminated, whether favorably or des-favorably as each case may by the incontrovertible and unalienable verities of the True Religion of God such as was revealed to us by the many Manifestations down the ages and more particularly His Holiness Baha'u'llah for the recent and actual times as well as for the times to come. As soon as this meeting with Pepe ended, Jacques and Donald came downstairs to see Mason who awakened from his siesta. He said he was happy to see them again, and repeated several times the Verse: "There are many called and few chosen" and pronounced alternatively that there is but one true Guardian only, of the Cause of God. He repeated too that this fact, nowadays invisible to the peoples, would become subsequently and at last clear and evident to all. He recommended to never be discouraged whatever events may come to us for ultimately all will be well. This is the Cause of God and nothing; absolutely nothing will ever prevail against His Plan. All will become at last clear for all the peoples of the Earth for times to come. Mason told Donald and Jacques "Do you see this painting and this portrait that I can see through the mirror of this chest over there? Well, one can ask himself all kinds of questions, and there will always be questions, always questions one can ask without ever finding any answer. Nevertheless we must forge ahead and do what is to be done, gradually as things present themselves to you and not allow questions to stop you as if they were obstacles. There will be and always will be questions that one must not try to answer nor to solve. Only acts performed in the right spirit will be taken in account. Anyways every effort will always find an ending and will inevitably bear its fruits." Mason also said to Donald and to Jacques: "Each time there are inside bowel movements in my body and that there is this inside growling which forces me often to do what I shouldn't as I lay upon this bed, then I know that there is something the matter in the Baha'i Cause, that things are not correct in the Cause and are going bad." As dinner time approached Jacques and Donald took with Pepe leave of Mason and would rejoin him after dinner. Thus about 8:30 p.m. Jacques, Donald and Pepe, after a brief conversation together that began during dinner, visited again Mason. He greeted them standing up and with a cane in hand. He sat down in the arm chair as Pepe said to him: "Mason, when you will be tired, you tell Donald and Jacques and we will then all retire for the night." Mason began the interview stating that the day about to end was a marking success, nevertheless there would yet be many events of all kinds. He then quoted again the Verses: "There are many called but few chosen". He also said that things announced themselves well yet everything could be compromised, that is why we should all dedicate ourselves to action, each as he is concerned, in his family, in his city, in his work. No one could foretell exactly what would then happen and what would be the future condition of this or that person, and that it would be wiser not to say too much now. He then came back and quoted the Verse: "There are many called but few chosen ones …." And then fixing his gaze through the window of his room Mason told Jacques and Donald: "I can see over there a light and one can ask himself questions without ever finding an answer." (The sun had set, night was upon us and across the Arno River from where we were we could see not only one but several lights scintillating like big stars, coming so it appeared from houses upon the hill. Mason during his interview was in full possession of his powers and no one did see him yet as one could behold him that evening as the True Guardian of the Cause of God and of Baha'u'llah, the very Centre of the Faith, the fully lucid Captain conducting the Ship.) Mason insisted again, and at length this time, more then ever before upon the fact that there is but one True Guardian of the Faith, upon the Verse: "There are many called but few chosen", and upon the presence of questions in our minds, questions which will never be resolved. Between these things Mason asked first Jacques and Donald if they would have anything to say themselves. He asked them if they had any questions, first of all general, and thereafter personal, to bring to him. One after the other Jacques and Donald related to him their profession and entourage, asking him if they should be changed? In each case Mason declared: "Continue, pursue what you are now doing concerning your professional work from where you are now, and for your family." Again came the theme: "There will always be questions which will never be answered, and it should not deter us in any way whatsoever." Mason asked again and again once more, if there were questions as if to probe at this instant his visitors. Upon a remark of Mason that whole problems yet subsist in a very special country where the Guardian is already served on the spot (its capital city was mentioned earlier in the day and Mason did not provide any precise answer to it) one of his visitors received from Mason this answer: "if it would be possible for anyone to make a brief journey there it would be indeed a good thing." Another question was brought to Mason, a question also mentioned earlier in the afternoon and unanswered until now: "Would Somaliland Coast become the future Holy Land?" (as it was reportedly told to someone by the Guardian). To this Mason replied that there would remain always questions without an immediate answer, or that the answer would become evident after a long time has elapsed. Then, at Mason’s bidding that this question be reworded, it was asked to him if this affirmation made before by the Guardian would be fulfilled before or after the Great Catastrophe constituted by the slip of the earths crust. He replied: "After!" At this very moment Pepe, who wasn't taking part in the conversation, appeared at the entrance and asked if all was well, and upon the affirmation of Jacques and Donald he announced he would have to be absent briefly and would be on his way. At this point the Guardian declared to Jacques and to Donald that the interview was over and that, feeling increasing fatigue upon him, he should think upon retiring for the night. Pepe was called so everything would go well with Mason in preparing him for the night. This was done in a jiffy and with Mason well installed in his bed, Jacques and Donald respectfully took leave as he told them that this day was for him particularly significant and propitious in every way. In concluding with the foregoing, the Guardian is most obviously in full possession of his faculties and in full command of his Guardianship. Pepe, as well as all those, believers or not who visit him, estimate that he is a most exceptional person alive today, expecting to see him standing up without any assistance as it was the case even not so long ago. All expect him to outlive many much younger persons, and in any case to be alive upon this Earth many more years. For none must forget that he is the Guardian of the Cause of God and as such he, Mason, is under the Protection and Guidance of Baha'u'llah no matter what says men and women who pretend to be what they are not and who are no longer what they were slated to be, all this owing to their deeds and their utterances, above all owing to the steps they have taken. Over a hundred years ago Baha'u'llah was a prisoner of men, never the less through the deeds and the words of this Glorious Manifestation the ultimate victory of the Cause of God has been demonstrated. Demonstrated at the same time the errors of men, foremost the errors of temporal 19th Century Rulers who because of their conceit and their neglect with respect to the One True God manifested upon this Earth have impressed upon the turn of events, periods of tragedy and useless wars whose consequence was thereafter to multiply to infinity human problems, through the fallacious actions of human-formed groups which continue to insist upon solving without God — without His Manifestation — all these problems, all this un-orderliness, all this confusion which can only increase, unless each one, and all the peoples unanimously turn to Him, Baha'u'llah. This will be so at the right time whatever the great opposition strains of today and those to yet come. In another degree Mason, the Guardian, the one and only unique Guardian of the Cause of Baha'u'llah who will remain so as long as he lives upon this Earth, the only Guardian for today and for years to come, is also a prisoner, a prisoner confined to his room because of all the confusion and disorder now in the Faith. This confusion and disorder, caused by some persons well in view who have "risen" and have unexpectedly deviated from the right path, has repercussions in the very inside of his physical body. All must know, in accordance to the very desire of Mason he has himself expressed before Jacques and before Donald during their visit to him on 5th September 1972, how much Pepe is serving the True Cause while serving the physical person of the One who is today and tomorrow the one and only Guardian. Each concerned should profitably make an examination of his own conscience so he can determine himself which Faith he is serving? Is it the one and only Faith of Baha'u'llah effectively guarded as never before so it well seems by its one and only Guardian whatever his present physical sufferings which Pepe strives to alleviate at the maximum. Otherwise is it a pretense of a Faith disguised with the True Name so as to mislead the peoples in believing it is the True Faith while in reality it is but an aggravated repetition of past human mistakes, mistakes having no valid excuse whatever for those. All men and women who commit them today before God and, as it will become sooner or later visibly evident, before all the men and women who lived upon this Earth at all times. Mistakes built upon cupidity, selfishness, particular-isms, the personal "causes" disguised in the garb considered to be that of the True Cause! Even worse than that, for God the Almighty had revealed for all to see an Alliance and a Covenant with all of Creation, the summit of which is man. Humankind today, made up of all these men and all these women, finds itself temporarily misled and threatened to be fallaciously and definitively towed away by some persons who pretend serving faithfully so they can mislead the better and thus transform the Cause into a vile commerce and become a personal means of influence. Nevertheless these misled are mistaken for no one on Earth, except obviously the One who is the True Guardian, can ever pretend to know this True Cause of God. It is solely through the one and only unique Guardian now living on Earth that each believer can ever hope to know this True Cause and to develop thereby as he serves it really and unconditionally. Aside from this everything else is but illusion which will but leads to naught, while the True Cause under the Unique One is the Living Guardian, will triumph over all. All will be well ultimately. Mason has always assured us ever since we knew him as Guardian, and he says so again with even more force today. ‎ *** **Endnotes** **1.** \[Editor's note: Donald Harvey is listed as the primary author on this account with Jaques Soghomonian as secondary author. It's assumed because he was present for the visit his co-authorship is an agreement to the account.] ‎ *** **Document Details** - **Type:** Primary source. Eyewitness narrative of a personal visit and conversation. - **Date:** September 5, 1972 (The date associated with this document is the date of the visit and not the date of the written account, which we assume was shortly thereafter.) - **Author:** Donald Harvey assisted by Jacques Soghomonian - **Length:** 2 pages, typed (original pagination) - **Summary Note:** Two page historical account from memory of a visit with Charles Mason Remey at age 98 in Florence, Italy on September 5, 1972. Includes quotes and observations on his health, beliefs, and concerns. - **Editorial Note:** Text reproduced as written. This document exists in transcription only; no facsimile of the original is held in this archive. Paragraph breaks have been introduced editorially solely to aid readability and do not reflect the formatting of the original document. **Archivist Notes:** - Frequently referenced document quoting Charles Mason Remey believed he was the Lamb of Revelation. See *Editorial Introduction* with document for further explanation. - This document has been referenced elsewhere under the titles 'Text prepared by Donald Harvey' and 'Text prepared by Donald Harvey with the assistance of Jacques Soghomonian,' which may have served as a header on the original document. Without access to the original, neither the exact title nor its placement can be verified. - Discrepancies in the dating of this document have been noted, with some references citing September 4 while others September 5. As the narrative identifies the day of the journey to Florence as September 4 and their actual visit the next day, Tuesday, September 5, 1972 is determined to be the correct date. **Archivist Classification** - **Collection:** Associated Authors - **Period:** 1972, early period. **Related Documents** - ***Sixth Epistle to Joseph Pepe Remey***, Dr. Leland Jensen, August 28, 1990 – Cites this account; also sent as an enclosure. - ***Most Mighty Document***, Dr. Leland Jensen, April 1979 – Cites this account. **Reference Information** - **Permanent Link:** https://leland-jensen.info/associated-authors/1972-09-05-harvey-donald-visiting-cm-remey/ - **Download PDF:** [1972-09-05-harvey-donald-visiting-cm-remey-harvey.pdf](https://leland-jensen-info.netlify.app/1972-09-05-harvey-donald-visiting-cm-remey.pdf) - **Citation (Chicago Style):** Harvey, Donald, with Jacques Soghomonian. "Visiting Charles Mason Remey, September 5, 1972." Unpublished narrative account, Missoula, MT, ca. 1972. Informally circulated among students. Leland Jensen Archive. Accessed \[Month Day, Year]. https://leland-jensen.info/associated-authors/1972-09-05-harvey-donald-visiting-cm-remey/ - **Archive Home:** https://leland-jensen.info - **Last Updated:** 31 March 2026 - **Revision Notes:** Reclassification from Related Materials / Reference Works to Associated Authors. Donald Harvey now listed as primary author. Updated Permalink. *** **See Also** - [[1993-08-24 Yazdani, E. S.|Letter from Dr. Leland Jensen to E. S. Yazdani, August 24, 1993 ]] - [[1993-12-09 Yazdani, E. S.|Letter from Dr. Leland Jensen to E. S. Yazdani, December 9, 1993]] *** [Site Guide](site%20guide.md)  |   [Sitemap](sitemap.md)  |   [Downloads](downloads.md)  |  [Contact Us](contact%20us.md) **Dr. Leland Jensen**: Teachings and Commentaries Archive © 2026 Baha'i Council of Dane County, all rights reserved.  [Copyright & Usage Policy](copyright.md) ***